Re: [lojban] lujvo for "spelling"? (was Re: [lojban-beginners] How do you write "Eyjafjallajökull"? (a sentence from tatoeba))

[Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>]

On 12 July 2012 19:36, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT the
>> >> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed you'd know:
>> >> "me'o = the mathematical expression (unevaluated); convert unevaluated
>> >> mathematical expression to sumti."
>> >>
>> >> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it's "2+2". That
>> >> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", even
>> >> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression is
>> >> "4" and not "b".
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", however, it is the VARIABLE
>> > "b",
>> > NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathematics here. Math doesn't
>> > have
>> > letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things REPRESENTED
>> > by
>> > letters are VARIABLES.
>>
>> Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the
>> unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b" on a piece of paper, and
>> that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven't I?
>
>
> I would say no, because a variable is a symbol which represents a numeric
> value, possibly unknown, most likely changing according to circumstances,
> even possibly imaginary, but a value nonetheless, whereas a letter
> represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbols for both /can/ be
> the same, it is not true that they represent the same thing. Regardless of
> which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.i ko ciska me'o by.} Means
> "You! write the mathematical expression 'b'." {.i ko ciska by.} means "You!
> write the letter 'b'."
>

I think that taking a look at the CLL might clear things up, as arpis mentioned.
Chapter 17 section 10 example two clearly demonstrates use of me'o for
denoting letters.
Furthermore, pure use of quotations is definitely incorrect, as
evidenced in examples four and five.

>>
>> Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would just
>> write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me'o by
>> lo papri}.
>
>
> In any environment where you told someone to write the variable b, they
> would would place a vertical line with a connecting closed loop at the
> bottom to the right. It's not a Lojbanic-specific thing.
>

You're wrong. I'm definitely not dreaming when I'm saying that the
variable b in Lojban is {by}. As you must already know, {b} by itself,
in Lojban, is a cmevla, and even though I'm stating what's blatantly
obvious here, cmevla are not "mathematical expressions" by ANY
stretch.

>>
>> Looking at the definition of {lerfu}, the gimste seems to suggest that
>> a letter can be referred to with {la'e zo BY}. Is it thus the case
>> that {la'e zo by ce'o abu ce'o...} (which is redundant to {la'e lo'u
>> by abu ... le'u}) is the correct way to give a letter list?
>
>
> No. {zo} only quotes one word. It would either be {la'e zo by. ce'o lu .abu
> li'u ce'o ...} or possibly {la'e lu by. .abu ... li'u}. And I'm not saying
> either are "correct", except in a grammatical sense.
>
I now notice that I forgot some {zo} (and lu..li'u).
I think you fail to understand my understanding of lo'u..le'u which
I'm almost certain I've explained: {lo'u by cy dy le'u} == {zo by ce'o
zo cy ce'o zo dy}.
Using {la'e lu abu by cy li'u} is wrong on a different level, because
inside a lu..li'u words INTERACT with each other, such that all those
BY (and ABU) compound to form one variable.

>>
>> And, I think I should mention that you haven't answered my question.
>> How would you give a letter list? It's good and well to tell everyone
>> that they're wrong, but if you suggest no solutions, I'm afraid you're
>> only being unproductive.
>
>
> I have answered your question. That you haven't seen it is not my fault.
>
If by "answered" you're that semantically incorrect use of {tadji},
then no, you haven't answered it at all. You've told me my solutions
are no good, and I've thus made more. I have yet to see you
reciprocate that behaviour.

>>
>> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>>
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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