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Re: [lojban] lujvo for "spelling"? (was Re: [lojban-beginners] How do you write "Eyjafjallajökull"? (a sentence from tatoeba))
On 12 July 2012 20:41, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12 July 2012 19:36, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT the
>>> >> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed you'd know:
>>> >> "me'o = the mathematical expression (unevaluated); convert unevaluated
>>> >> mathematical expression to sumti."
>>> >>
>>> >> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it's "2+2". That
>>> >> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", even
>>> >> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression is
>>> >> "4" and not "b".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", however, it is the VARIABLE
>>> > "b",
>>> > NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathematics here. Math doesn't
>>> > have
>>> > letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things REPRESENTED
>>> > by
>>> > letters are VARIABLES.
>>>
>>> Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the
>>> unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b" on a piece of paper, and
>>> that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven't I?
>>
>>
>> I would say no, because a variable is a symbol which represents a numeric
>> value, possibly unknown, most likely changing according to circumstances,
>> even possibly imaginary, but a value nonetheless, whereas a letter
>> represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbols for both /can/ be
>> the same, it is not true that they represent the same thing. Regardless of
>> which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.i ko ciska me'o by.} Means
>> "You! write the mathematical expression 'b'." {.i ko ciska by.} means "You!
>> write the letter 'b'."
>>
>
> I think that taking a look at the CLL might clear things up, as arpis mentioned.
> Chapter 17 section 10 example two clearly demonstrates use of me'o for
> denoting letters.
> Furthermore, pure use of quotations is definitely incorrect, as
> evidenced in examples four and five.
>
>>>
>>> Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would just
>>> write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me'o by
>>> lo papri}.
>>
>>
>> In any environment where you told someone to write the variable b, they
>> would would place a vertical line with a connecting closed loop at the
>> bottom to the right. It's not a Lojbanic-specific thing.
>>
>
> You're wrong. I'm definitely not dreaming when I'm saying that the
> variable b in Lojban is {by}. As you must already know, {b} by itself,
> in Lojban, is a cmevla, and even though I'm stating what's blatantly
> obvious here, cmevla are not "mathematical expressions" by ANY
> stretch.
>
>>>
>>> Looking at the definition of {lerfu}, the gimste seems to suggest that
>>> a letter can be referred to with {la'e zo BY}. Is it thus the case
>>> that {la'e zo by ce'o abu ce'o...} (which is redundant to {la'e lo'u
>>> by abu ... le'u}) is the correct way to give a letter list?
>>
>>
>> No. {zo} only quotes one word. It would either be {la'e zo by. ce'o lu .abu
>> li'u ce'o ...} or possibly {la'e lu by. .abu ... li'u}. And I'm not saying
>> either are "correct", except in a grammatical sense.
>>
> I now notice that I forgot some {zo} (and lu..li'u).
> I think you fail to understand my understanding of lo'u..le'u which
> I'm almost certain I've explained: {lo'u by cy dy le'u} == {zo by ce'o
> zo cy ce'o zo dy}.
> Using {la'e lu abu by cy li'u} is wrong on a different level, because
> inside a lu..li'u words INTERACT with each other, such that all those
> BY (and ABU) compound to form one variable.
>
>>>
>>> And, I think I should mention that you haven't answered my question.
>>> How would you give a letter list? It's good and well to tell everyone
>>> that they're wrong, but if you suggest no solutions, I'm afraid you're
>>> only being unproductive.
>>
>>
>> I have answered your question. That you haven't seen it is not my fault.
>>
> If by "answered" you're * that semantically incorrect use of {tadji},
> then no, you haven't answered it at all. You've told me my solutions
> are no good, and I've thus made more. I have yet to see you
> reciprocate that behaviour.
>
* referring to
>>>
>>> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>>>
>>> > --
>>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>> >
>>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>> >
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
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