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Re: [lojban] lujvo for "spelling"? (was Re: [lojban-beginners] How do you write "Eyjafjallajökull"? (a sentence from tatoeba))
Well, according to my interpretation of things, a lo'u quotation
amounts to a sequence of zo quotations. If using dereferenced zo
quotations is correct, then using dereference zo quotation sequences
is certainly correct in producing a sequence of "letters".
mu'o mi'e la tsani
On 12 July 2012 20:59, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 19:36, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT the
>> >> >> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed you'd
>> >> >> know:
>> >> >> "me'o = the mathematical expression (unevaluated); convert
>> >> >> unevaluated
>> >> >> mathematical expression to sumti."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it's "2+2". That
>> >> >> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", even
>> >> >> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> "4" and not "b".
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", however, it is the
>> >> > VARIABLE
>> >> > "b",
>> >> > NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathematics here. Math
>> >> > doesn't
>> >> > have
>> >> > letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things
>> >> > REPRESENTED
>> >> > by
>> >> > letters are VARIABLES.
>> >>
>> >> Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the
>> >> unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b" on a piece of paper, and
>> >> that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven't I?
>> >
>> >
>> > I would say no, because a variable is a symbol which represents a
>> > numeric
>> > value, possibly unknown, most likely changing according to
>> > circumstances,
>> > even possibly imaginary, but a value nonetheless, whereas a letter
>> > represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbols for both /can/
>> > be
>> > the same, it is not true that they represent the same thing. Regardless
>> > of
>> > which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.i ko ciska me'o by.} Means
>> > "You! write the mathematical expression 'b'." {.i ko ciska by.} means
>> > "You!
>> > write the letter 'b'."
>> >
>>
>> I think that taking a look at the CLL might clear things up, as arpis
>> mentioned.
>> Chapter 17 section 10 example two clearly demonstrates use of me'o for
>> denoting letters.
>> Furthermore, pure use of quotations is definitely incorrect, as
>> evidenced in examples four and five.
>
>
> Use of {lu} quotations is incorrect, but {lo'u} quotations may be different
> in this case.
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would just
>> >> write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me'o by
>> >> lo papri}.
>> >
>> >
>> > In any environment where you told someone to write the variable b, they
>> > would would place a vertical line with a connecting closed loop at the
>> > bottom to the right. It's not a Lojbanic-specific thing.
>> >
>>
>> You're wrong. I'm definitely not dreaming when I'm saying that the
>> variable b in Lojban is {by}. As you must already know, {b} by itself,
>> in Lojban, is a cmevla, and even though I'm stating what's blatantly
>> obvious here, cmevla are not "mathematical expressions" by ANY
>> stretch.
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> Looking at the definition of {lerfu}, the gimste seems to suggest that
>> >> a letter can be referred to with {la'e zo BY}. Is it thus the case
>> >> that {la'e zo by ce'o abu ce'o...} (which is redundant to {la'e lo'u
>> >> by abu ... le'u}) is the correct way to give a letter list?
>> >
>> >
>> > No. {zo} only quotes one word. It would either be {la'e zo by. ce'o lu
>> > .abu
>> > li'u ce'o ...} or possibly {la'e lu by. .abu ... li'u}. And I'm not
>> > saying
>> > either are "correct", except in a grammatical sense.
>> >
>> I now notice that I forgot some {zo} (and lu..li'u).
>> I think you fail to understand my understanding of lo'u..le'u which
>> I'm almost certain I've explained: {lo'u by cy dy le'u} == {zo by ce'o
>> zo cy ce'o zo dy}.
>> Using {la'e lu abu by cy li'u} is wrong on a different level, because
>> inside a lu..li'u words INTERACT with each other, such that all those
>> BY (and ABU) compound to form one variable.
>>
>> >>
>> >> And, I think I should mention that you haven't answered my question.
>> >> How would you give a letter list? It's good and well to tell everyone
>> >> that they're wrong, but if you suggest no solutions, I'm afraid you're
>> >> only being unproductive.
>> >
>> >
>> > I have answered your question. That you haven't seen it is not my fault.
>> >
>> If by "answered" you're that semantically incorrect use of {tadji},
>> then no, you haven't answered it at all. You've told me my solutions
>> are no good, and I've thus made more. I have yet to see you
>> reciprocate that behaviour.
>>
>> >>
>> >> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>> >>
>> >> > --
>> >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >> >
>> >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >> >
>> >> > --
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>> >> > "lojban" group.
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>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
>> > --
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
>
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