Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 9:05 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com> wrote:

On 07/12/2012 09:56 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:52 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>>>> How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to
>>>>> x3
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm
>>>>> putting a tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying
>>>>> something more like {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't
>>>>> make sense.) and {tu'a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a
>>>>> submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify
>>>>> as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>>>>
>>>> That's actually too *narrow* -- it doesn't allow us to talk about how we
>>>> gender inanimate objects and each other. (E.g., <http://is.gd/HXdBMy>,
>>>> <http://is.gd/aFzoSg>.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The use of "gender" in that context is different than
>> self-identification;
>>> it's targeting based on gender, and that's a tanru/lujvo.
>>
>> What would you tanru/lujvo together to convey that? sevzi is
>> insufficient to distinguish gender identity from other kinds of
>> self-identification (e.g. nationality/culture); klesi and le'e likewise.
>> cinse is narrower, but as I've mentioned also means sexual orientation,
>> and to distinguish which sense is meant we again need a word that means
>> gender.
>>
>> (If we had a word for sex, gender could be constructed by lujvo as "sex
>> stereotype". But we don't.)
>>
>
> If you mean sex as in "having this particular sexual chromosome pair", we
> have a lujvo for that:

> jbepibnafei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/jbepibnafei>

(Technically it's a fu'ivla.)

I dislike long words for important concepts. And jbepibnafei doesn't
specify chromosomes over (say) genitals; it's presumably most useful in
cases where a clean gender binary is assumed, or where edge cases should
be described in full.

I disagree that what you're talking about is important. And there is nothing about the word that is binary, implicitly or explicitly.

As far as talking about the gene sequences specific to a person's genital development, that would be a completely different word.

Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.