Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 11:00 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

Jorge Llambías, On 06/10/2014 23:10:

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 9:55 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>> wrote:      

    So {lo broda cu brodu} is not equivalent to {zo'e ge broda gi brodu}?

I would say they are not equivalent because that it brodas is in one
case presupposed and in the other case asserted.

Okay. That answers my question. What's the rationale for your answer (i.e. for holding that the lo description is presupposed)?

I take "lo broda" to be a referring _expression_, not a claim, and therefore the veridicality of its description can only be presupposed. I'm not sure what other kind of rationale there might be. Since "lo" is marked neither as definite/indefinite nor as specific/generic, it is useful for identification of its referents that it is at least veridical, This also allows maintaining the original definition of "lo", prior to CLL:  "veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ..."

I don't think there is any concentrated full coverage anywhere.

I have seen attempts to define {lo} periphrastically using {zo'e}. Since afaik Lojban has no words for marking presupposition, any periphrasis (without the requisite neologistic presupposition-markers) is doomed to fail.

Yes, the usual paraphrase for "lo broda" is "zo'e noi ke'a broda", which changes the presupposition into a side-claim, which is as close as we could make it. But even with that paraphase "lo broda cu brodu" is not equivalent to "zo'e ge broda gi brodu", because "naku lo broda cu brodu" = "naku zo'e noi broda cu brodu" = "zo'e na broda .i ta'o ri brodu" is not equivalent to "naku zo'e ge broda gi brodu" = "zo'e ga na broda gi na brodu". 

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 

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