[lojban-beginners] Re: confusing gismus

["Jorge Llambías" <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Jan 1, 2008 2:55 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> I don't think I have thought of skapi as necessarily detached, though it
> can be.  But I do think of it as being a distinct organ/body part of an
> animal with all the range of functions applicable to that organ, which
> are more than mere protection.

Ok, but most (all?) other body parts are defined as "of x2",
not "from x2". Compare for example with kerfa, pilka and sunla:

kerfa: x1 is a/the hair/fur [body-part] of x2 at body location x3.
pilka: x1 is a crust/rind/peel/skin/hide/outer cover of x2.

sunla: x1 is a quantity of/made from/consists of wool [tight curly
       hair] from animal/species/source x2
skapi: x1 is a pelt/skin/hide/leather from x2.

> If actual usage has limited skapi's meaning to that of the material
> derived from the body organ of a (hopefully dead) animal, I could
> probably live with it.

I was just going by the definitions, but usage seems to have gone
against the definitions.

> But Nora and I both think that the place
> structure wording does not exclude the body part/pilka role.

Doesn't the "from x2" wording exclude it? Or, if it doesn't, why
have it at all?

> JCB had two words pelpi and skapi (which confusingly are our
> skapi and pilka, respectively), and I don't think his definitions
> were any clearer.

He has:

PELPI: X is a hide/skin/piece of leather from animal Y.
n hide - a piece of leather from animal ...
a hide - made of leather
n leather - a pelt/piece of pelt from ...
a leather - made of leather
n pelt - animal skin/piece of leather from ...
a skin - made of skin/leather

SKAPI: X is the skin/rind/outer-covering of Y, general term.
n hide - skin of living organism ...
n rind - the skin/outer covering of ...
n skin - the outer covering of ...

So it seems pretty clear that one is a material and the other is a body part.
His adjective def. of PELPI has "made of", his noun use has "from", and
it always mentions leather which is not a body part.

mu'o mi'e xorxes