Re: [lojban] Re: Named multiples

[Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se>]

>> This argument is really vague. What does "irregular word-form" mean?
>> What does "normally allowed" mean? Are you saying that this change
>> would make there be too many pauses?
>
> lojbancanbereadasonebigstringwhichishowit'sheardinspeachsoi
> fwesuddenlyintroducewordsthatCANendinconsonantsth
> enwefrackuptheabilitytopickoutwordsaccurately.

Sigh, no.  One word: dotside.

>> If you're saying that this change could result in fu'ivla being
>> abandoned altogether, why is that a bad thing? Specifically, what is
>> it about cmevla-as-selbri that makes them good for the speaker but bad
>> for the language?
>
> The case against long lujvo is moot. We create loanwords from our own
> language when they become too long. Also, mitpavycinglepre is a really
> stupid example as that isn't an accurate lujvo for 'homosexual',

There's no such thing as an "accurate lujvo".  But the fact of the matter
is that {mitpavycinglepre} is a well-established word.  And my point is
exactly that at some point people thought it was getting too inconvenient.
So we shortened it.  Rationalized it.  Came up with a slicker word for it.

    http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mitcinse

> and
> I'm quite offended by the idea that we have to have a word like that
> in a more enlightened age where gender and sexuality are fluid enough
> to warrant "nakni cinse", "fetsi cinse" and so on. I personally am
> offended by the use of "mitpavycinglepre".

Well, thank you for proving my point.  Inconvenient words for important
concepts are always undesirable, whether they be cmevla, lujvo, or fu'ivla.

> That aside, my point is that we create fu'ivla of exceptionally long
> lujvo in an effort to keep them short. It's like the lojbanic version
> of abbreviating things.

Exactly the same can be done with cmevla.

> We have a standard of phonological rules in Lojban. Everything ends in
> a vowel,

Not cmevla, and they are part of the language.

> anything with two or more syllables has penultimate stress,

Not necessarily cmavo, and not necessarily cmevla.

> things have to have correct consonant clusters so they don't break
> apart.

That's one requirement for gismu, lujvo and fu'ivla, yes.  There are others for
those classes and there are yet others for other classes.  For example, cmavo
can not have any consonant clusters, and cmevla must end in consonants.

> There is an ordered and well-thought-out structure to every
> single word, phrase, emphasis, and every other thing in the language.

Well... heh.  Let's agree to disagree on that.

> The ONLY thing that ends in a consonant is a name, and so names become
> easy to pick out due to the fact that we rarely use them in
> conversation, and they sound nothing like the rest of the language.

You're exaggerating how different they sound.  They only use Lojban phonemes,
and most of them sound exactly like a brivla with a consonant at the end.

By your reasoning, every kind of word in Lojban sounds nothing like the
rest of the language.  Yet that's a feature.  It's a good thing.  (In English,
all the words sound just like each other.)

The rules for fu'ivla are more relaxed than for other brivla, but I don't see
you proposing to ban fu'ivla because they can sound a bit different.

> On that mental parse tree, if we used "xorla", I would now have to
> stop and question every single cmevla to check whether or not it's
> being used as a selbri.

You don't have to "stop and question" every cmevla.  That's not how
language works.  Do you have to stop and question every word to
check whether or not it's being quoted?  Do you have to stop and
question every brivla to see whether it's being used as a name?
No, you don't, because that's not how language works.

I guess you would prefer if we didn't have selbri names?

> If we restricted cmevla selbri to ONLY being "x1 is named/called...",
> then I would agree full-tilt with this proposal. If that doesn't work
> with everybody else, then can we at least put -some- restrictions on
> them? Perhaps that they're restricted to being single place selbri?
>
> =D We can call my proposal "linla" in honour of xorxes. ((zo'o))

(No comment.)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.