Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't mean to sound rude, but we are two native English speakers
> (myself and Robin), and you are not. The meaning of the phrase, in my
> native understanding of English, is that she grew bored with it.

I don't think anyone is misunderstanding what the English says
(Spanish "cansado" works basically the same as English "tired" in this
respect, so rest assured that that is not the issue.) We are not
arguing about what the English "tired of" means, that's clear enough.
We are discussing whether or not the Lojban word "tatpi" has a meaning
wide enough to go beyond pysical exhaustion or fatigue.

> I
> promise that it does not mean that she grew fatigued as a direct
> result of being bored.

I know that. She grew weary of having nothing to do. She wants that
situation to stop.  The question is not about what the English means,
the question is about what "tatpi" means. Can it be used of an x2 that
is still ongoing and that the x1 would want to stop, or can it only be
used of things that are over and have left the x1 in a certain state.

> "I tire of this." means "I grow bored with
> this." or "This no longer interests me."

Yes, more or less, among other things.

> Especially in this sense
> considering what kind of person Alice is. One could definitely argue
> that she could have grown tired as an indirect result of being bored
> (boredom leads to depression, depression leads to stress, stress leads
> to physical fatigue, physical fatigue is {tatpi}), but that's not what
> is being conveyed in the original English.

Of course not, I totally agree with that.

> One could also argue that
> in certain instances, tiring of something could be annoyance, but this
> is definitely not the case as it does not fit the situation at all.

I would agree. She might be a little annoyed by the situation, but I
too feel "fanza" is too strong here. She's just weary.

>In
> the sense that it's used, I believe it's a metaphorical extension,
> which does not translate very well/at all into Lojban.

That's what we are discussing. Does the Lojban "tatpi" cover this
sense of the English "tired of" or not? Robin says that to him this
sense, let's call it "exhaust of interest", is too unrelated to the
"exhaust of strength" or even "exhaust of patience" senses to be
covered by the same word in Lojban. I say they are related enough to
be covered by the same word. The dispute is about how wide "tatpi" is,
not about what English "tired of" means.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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