Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)

[Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>]

On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 06:52:19PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 17:19:
> >On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 05:08:02PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
> >>
> >>In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within
> >>the same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not
> >>the case that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x
> >>is one of A,B,C, it is not the case that x is the case".
> >>
> >>Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has
> >>*exactly the same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope
> >>between elements that are not explicitly prenexed.
> >
> >Show me an example please.
> 
> "su'o broda ro brode cu brodi"
>
> "na ku a bu e by e cy cu broda"
> 
> Ten years ago these were ambiguous. 

You're going to have to hold my hand more than that, I'm afraid.
Ambiguous how?

> Xorxes proposed a rule that items in higher clauses have scope
> over items in lower clauses (i.e. that items export to the prenex
> of the localmost clause) and that when two items are in the same
> clause, the leftward element has scope over the rightward. (It's a
> shame to have to 'pollute' the purely hierarchical structure of
> logical form with left-to-right order of forms, but it's by far
> the simplest way to rescue Lojban in its (then) current state.
> Perhaps the BPFK has made xorxes's rule official, in which case I
> wonder what happened to the rule about the scope of selbri tcita
> "na", and to the scope of selbri tcita in general.)

I didn't know that was xorxes' rule; I thought left-to-right
quantifier scope was in the CLL.  Yes, indeed:
http://dag.github.com/cll/16/5/ "The rule for dropping the prenex is
simple: if the variables appear in the same order within the bridi
as they did in the prenex, then the prenex is superfluous.".

So, I'm probably failing to understand.  Can you please explain it
like I'm very very stupid?

-Robin

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.