Re: [lojban] non-ka properties

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>]

2011/6/21 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> 2011/6/20 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
>>
>> From the gimste, I would describe a se cipra as a pure ka, non-kau,
>> property.
>
> I consider a ka-kau a pure property, just not fully specified.
>

I consider a pure-ka a predicate with a variable argument, and a
ka-kau a function. At least, this is what I was asking for in my first
message. Perhaps you mean that the {kau} thing means "whatever
fits here"?

>> That is, in a cipra the te cipra is tested for whether it
>> satisfies a certain predicate, specified by the se cipra (or for how well
>> does it satisfy that predicate, in a fuzzy approach).
>
> The wording may suggest that, but it seems to be unnecessarily restrictive.
>
> Compare:
>
> pajni lo du'u xu kau ta glare
> "... determines whether that is hot."
>
> cipra lo ka xu kau ce'u glare kei ta
> "... tests the hotness of that."
>
> pajni lo du'u lo ma kau jimte ti
> "... determines what the limits of this are."
>
> cipra lo ka ma kau jimte ce'u kei ti
> "... tests the 'what are its limits'-ness of this."
> "... tests the limits of this."
>
>> Reading a ka-makau makes me wonder if the cipra is being interpreted
>> as some kind of measure of what stands in the place indicated by {makau}.
>
> A determination or assessment, yes, not necessarily a measurement.
>

Hmmm...
Sorry, I am a bit confused about the examples. Could you translate
  {cipra fi ko'a fe lo ka makau stuzi ce'u}?


>> ni'o
>> A second issue, which has been in my mind since I first considered
>> the kau approach: How does {ka broda} compare to {ka xukau broda}?
>>
>> (My current understanding still is that they mean the same)
>
> In the cipra case, or in general?
>
> If you think "cipra" has a "xukau" embedded as part of the definition
> of its x2, then it may be equivalent to use "lo ka" or "lo ka xu kau"
> in that place, but in general they are not equivalent.
>

I meant that in general. But now I agree with you.

I would say that a ka broda is as close to a ka xukau broda or a ka
makau jei ce'u broda as a predicate is to its truth value. Some times
they might be interchanged, but that is se sumti dependent.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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