Re: [lojban] Re: Rhetoric and Oratory, "the fruit of Arabic"

Well, one of the problems with pragmatic determinations is that they don't always work (but neither do semantic, which just fail less often). So, yes, we , as hearer, can sometimes not tell, but our response will either make the question irrelevant (if we pick just one of p and q) or will display the answer (if pand q are both excepted or not). But arguing from questions is a bit tricky, since a question is the set of its licit answers (the usual line of chat), the "or" here is neither XOR or OR, since "neither" is a licit answer. In some cases, but not, for example, if it is Mommy asking at the dinner table: "neither" is out, "both" is encouraged, but not expected. On the other hand, if the asker is a waitress in a restaurant, "both" is likely to be exclude ("with a choice of peas or carrots") but "neither is acceptable.

Nice to see a little logic around the logical language.

gut shabbas!

From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Rhetoric and Oratory, "the fruit of Arabic"

Okay, what he meant here was the line in the table where A is true and B is true (11), but switching the context from columns to lines). He's saying that in English you can tell from context whether or not "or" is meant to include "and" or not (although I would argue that it's not _always_ decidable from context) ("niff" meaning the "not (opposite of) if and only if", which is the equivalent of xor.) If you say "We can go to the movies or the zoo tomorrow", we can assume not both. But if you say "would you like carrots or peas with that?" it's not so clear if "both" is an option or not.

--gejyspa, off for shabbat... bye all

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah, yes, this still doesn't explain what the "the elimination of the <11> line" bit meant.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Agreed.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:06 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

Not just clearer, but excellently done.

stevo

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

What he is saying is a relationship let's call it "%" between two statements, A and B, can be represented in the following way:
A B A%B
True True
True False
False True
False False

Now, how do we fill in that last column? Well, in the case of inclusive or, it's True, True, True, False. In the case of Exclusive Or, it's False, True, True, False.

Now, since the first two columns are always in a standard order, we don't really need to talk about them. We can just say that "A inclusive or B" is "True, True, True, False" and A xor B is " False, True, True, False. ". And to be really compact, we can substitute T or F for True and False, making them "TTTF" and "FTTF" respectively. Or we can use "1" for true, and "0" for false, yielding "1110" and "0110". Clearer?

--gejyspa

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Doesn't mean it makes sense to me.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:03 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:

He's speaking thruth tables.

On 16 Mar, 19:34, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no idea what that means.
>

> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM, John E. Clifford <kali9pu...@yahoo.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "or" in English (and logic, where we are supposed to be) is <1110>. It's
> > apparent use for niff/xor, <0110> is determined pragmatically by the
> > elimination of the <11> line in context.
>
> > Sent from my iPad
>

> > On Mar 16, 2012, at 7:41 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Or" is not often ambiguous in context.
>
> > stevo
>

> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Jonathan Jones < <eyeo...@gmail.com>
> > eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> "or" in English (not logic) is ambiguous as to whether it means .a or
> >> .onai., so it doesn't count.
>

> >> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:12 PM, John E. Clifford <<kali9pu...@yahoo.com>
> >> kali9pu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Speaking as a logician and thus a sort of mathematician, I note that
> >>> "or" is shorter. XOR is, of course, xor.
>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
>

> >>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Jonathan Jones < <eyeo...@gmail.com>

> >>> eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I like to distinguish between xor and and/or, because English is
> >>> ambiguous as to which is meant. "a/o" is just the shortest possible way to
> >>> say .a
>

> >>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, MorphemeAddict < <lytl...@gmail.com><lytl...@gmail.com>
> >>> lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Oh. Of course.
>
> >>>> stevo
>

> >>>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford <<kali9pu...@yahoo.com><kali9pu...@yahoo.com>
> >>>> kali9pu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> andor, i.e. or
>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>> *From:* MorphemeAddict < <lytl...@gmail.com> <lytl...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> lytl...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> *To:* <lojban@googlegroups.com> <lojban@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>> lojban@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:21 PM
> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: Rhetoric and Oratory, "the fruit of

> >>>>> Arabic"
>
> >>>>> What does "a/o" mean? From the context it seems to mean 'in or about'.
> >>>>> Googling didn't help.
>
> >>>>> stevo
>

> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Jones < <eyeo...@gmail.com><eyeo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> I really wish buroq would just stick to Arabic a/o Lojban. I can never
> >>>>> understand his English. I'm betting Google Translate used on his Arabic
> >>>>> would even give better English, and that's saying something.
>

> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Muhammad an-Nuqrashi <<muhammad.n...@gmail.com><muhammad.n...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> muhammad.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> Buroq usually omitted the 'be' copula in many places where in Arabic a
> >>>>> 'be' verb/copula isn't needed... This goes on true with adjectives,
> >>>>> placement and presence of the/a, etc... I basically took the meanings of
> >>>>> his words and put them in Arabic ignoring the syntax and grammar he used...
> >>>>> I ended up with a pretty understandable Arabic piece and I added some bits
> >>>>> of my own after translation...
>
> >>>>> MN
> >>>>> --
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>
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>
> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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> >>> --
> >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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> >> --
> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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