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Re: [lojban] la snime blabi
On 24 July 2012 13:40, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:16 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Am 24.07.2012 17:44, schrieb Michael Turniansky:
>>>>
>>>> ".i ny za'u re'u pensi lo nu ta'i ma kau catra kei mu'i lo nu co'u lo nu
>>>> ca'a mlerai be ro lo selgu'e cu na surla kakne ri'a lo nu jilra"
>>>>
>>>> (first, I should note that on a grammatical note, genrei doesn't like it
>>>> without a "boi" or "cu" between "ny" and "re'u" since they otherwise form
>>>> into a single lerfu string. jboski (online jbofi'e), OTOH, has no problem
>>>> with it. I"m not sure what the "correct" interpretation is according to the
>>>> formal grammar)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's missing a cu. As I originally said, I did not proof-read the
>>>> translation, so typos like this one are expected to show up here and there.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I would tend to agree with that. I just think it interesting
>>> that jboski had no problem parsing it (and let's be honest, most humans
>>> wouldn't have trouble parsing it, either, tending to think of "z'aure'u" as
>>> a single conceptual unit, and since, even if one does take "ny.ra'u" as
>>> single unit, the sentence doesn't parse, even a backtracking type of method
>>> must realize that that can't be right)
>>>>
>>>> pensi-2's are normally considered to be ideas, not events, so it should
>>>> be si'o, not nu, for those who are pedantic about such stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can think about anything. You can think about objects, events,
>>>> whatever you want. Anything you can hold in your mind can be a pensi2.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Again, the pedants (and I don't necessarily say that I'm one) would
>>> say that you CAN'T hold a ball in your mind. You can hold a ball in your
>>> hand. You can only hold the IDEA of a ball in your mind, hence "si'o
>>> bolci". As for me, I've always felt lojban was too strongly "typed" anyhow.
>>>
>>>> But more importantly, I'm again having trouble getting the proper sense
>>>> of the sentence. I think you are trying to say that she is once again
>>>> thinking about how to kill (Snow White) because she is not able to relax
>>>> because she is no longer the most beautiful in the land, due to her
>>>> jealousy. Which I guess works, but it's real hard for me to puzzle out the
>>>> convolutions of the sentence due to the nested modals and tenses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's quite straighforward for me. But I can walk you through it:
>>>>
>>>> .i ny cu za'u re'u pensi lo nu ta'i ma kau catra kei
>>>> The queen (ny) again thought about how to kill (her)
>>>>
>>>> mu'i lo nu co'u lo nu ca'a mlerai lo ro selgu'e
>>>> because, until she was actually the pretties of all the people in the
>>>> country,
>>>>
>>>> cu na surla kakne
>>>> (she) would not be able to relax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ri'a lo nu jilra
>>>> because of her envy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I could add some more pro-sumti, but they are obvious enough to me to be
>>>> elided. I don't like how the na scopes over the ri'a in this sentence, so
>>>> I'll fix that in the actual text.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So you interpret "co'u X" as meaning "until X"? Interesting. So,
>>> that's in line with the proposal on
>>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Aspect+as+of+24+May+2004 To me, I
>>> still use the CLL version, which is part of my confusion. But in any case,
>>> I didn't say I couldn't puzzle it out, just that it was difficult. And
>>> yeah, I know you like to elide prosumti x1s in your main bridi, but that's
>>> the style of your story, so I didn't suggest changing it.
>>>
>>> --gejyspa
>>
>>
>> I thought "pu'o X" was "until X"...?
>>
>>
>
The CLL has ZAhO as sumtcita defined in a way that doesn't really
match up with with other sumtcita. IIRC, CCL says that {brode ZAhO lo
nu broda} == {brode ca lo nu ZAhO broda} which is the only case of the
tag infiltrating the abstraction. That wiki page, which I believe
reflects xorxes's proposal for ZAhO, says that {brode ZAhO ko'a} ==
{ZAhO brode ca ko'a}. Incidentally, that interpretation works for TAhE
too: {broda TAhE ko'a} == {TAhE broda ca ko'a}. Xorxes uses ZAhO in
this way in le cmalu noltru.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
> Yes, that's how the CLL has it, and the way I prefer it, but read the
> discussion link I posted above, or
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=ZAhO+as+sumti+tcita for why
> some don't like it that way.
> --gejyspa
>
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