Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}

[la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>]

On Monday, August 27, 2012 7:14:28 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
> la gleki, On 27/08/2012 05:34:
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:58:19 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
> >
> >     la gleki, On 25/08/2012 15:23:
> >      > OK. Please translate
> >      >
> >      > "I could eat some specific apple from that basket, namely the yellow (all the others are red)"
> >
> >     "mi su'o mu'ei citka le plise je se lanka be ta"
> >
> >      > "I could eat any apple from that basket".
> >
> >     "ro da poi ge plise gi se lanka ta zo'u mi su'o mu'ei citka da"
> >  >
> > 1. So "Give me any three apples from the basket!" would be {ro da poi
> > plise zo'u ko su'omu'ei dunda ci da}?
>
> I think that means "For every bunch of apples, make it the case that you could give me three out of the bunch.
>
> For "Give me any three apples", I'd suggest "e'o do dunda mi lo plise cimei", or "e'o do mi dunda ci da poi plise". Maybe "ko dunda" would do, but afaik scope of ko isn't defined.

"e'o do mi dunda ci da poi plise" - it's not Loglan. {dunda - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange].}

So it should be "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise".

Now translate "Give me three (specific) apples" - it will again be translated as "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise".

When I suggested

da - some/any

da su'a - any

da su'anai - some specific

I was hinting at a scale (specific/ non-specific). It's something that was completely lost after xorlo reform ({le} meant some objects that I have in mind and therefore worked much like an attitudinal. I'm not suggesting restoring pre-xorlo rules, of course).

I must acknowledge that {ro da zo'u mi su'omu'ei citka da} solves the problem (and I want exactly this sentence rephrased without {zo'u} like it's possible to do in English).

But if adding {e'o} turns it into "For every bunch of apples, make it the case that you could give me three out of the bunch."

then it's not a solution.

"any" (in this sense) is {su'o} number of apples from the set in the basket.

If we have 4 apples (numbered from 1 to 4) then "Give me three apples from the basket" would mean in all possible worlds ({romu'ei} ?) one of the following:

123

124

134

234

So here "Give me any three apples" = "In every possible world give me exactly three apples out of the 4 from that basket."

> There's no single Lojban word corresponding to English _any_. But there are Lojban sentences expressing the meaning of English sentences that contain _any_.
>
> > So in every possible world I'm asking for three {da}?
>
> No.
>
> > 2. Is it possible to get rid of {zo'u}?
>
> In your Lojban? I can't a way, but maybe I'm being slow.
>
> --And.

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