Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. People not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or intended audience, are third person, by definition, again. A person doesn't have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even have to be alive, apparently.

And "we" can include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that guy over there and I) will do it".

mi'a

Exactly. va'i
English "we" is either {mi'a} or {mi'o} or {ma'a} *.

*or {mi}

Or in other words {mi jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it only to the participants of the dialog?

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:

An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; who else depends on context. But, since this is a first person pronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional).

How can they cusku if they are not in this dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:

So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over specification in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} does it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are not to be included, by the nature of the gadri.

Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=the speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewed as speakers.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:

I thought I just did.

Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those to whom something is spoken? No.

"we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:

Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.

Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban?

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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