[lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a

["Michael Turniansky" <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:55, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 15:07, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I could say: {lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a
>>>> do ponse ke'a}: "the cars not only that I see but also that
>>>> you own".
>>>>
>>>    I would translate that sentence the same way, but not sure you and
>>> I would see the same meaning?  To me it would include cars that you
>>> own but I do not see.
>>
>> Hmm. I don't think the English Jorge gave allows your interpretation,
>> Michael. And as far as the Lojban, {po'onai} is the default
>> interpretation, and is redundant here. It's only there for emphasis.
>> Are you thinking that the set of cars included is an intersection of
>
> I mean "union of"
>
>> (the entire set, restricted by the first {poi}) and (the entire set,
>> restricted by the second poi)? I would think the interpretation would
>> be ((the entire set, restricted by the first {poi}), restricted by the
>> second {poi}).
>
> Of course, it comes down to the interpretation of {zi'e}, on which
> point CLL appears to be ambiguous. But really, if you wanted a union
> and not an intersection, why not use {joi} and repeat the sumti? Would
> the "union" interpretation of {zi'e} be convenient to justify the
> increased ambiguty for the sake of the increased brevity?
>

  Don't get me wrong, Chris. I didn't express myself well.  I agree
that "lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a do ponse ke'a"
in isolation, refers only to cars that both I saw and also you own
(intersection, it has to fulfill both parts).  And I agree that in
isolation, the po'onai doesn't add anything.  What I was saying was
that in the context of the original sentence about selling (the
aformentioned selbri), the po'onai means that you have sold cars that
I have seen and you own, but you didn't just sell those that I have
seen.  (This isn't a construct I would probably use in real life, btw)
         --gejyspa