doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph
On Sep 24, 2010 3:46 PM, "John E Clifford" <
kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, there is no sign that Dodo is bored, etc., just that he is moving the
> story along. And do be very careful with UI to be sure that you don't use them
> to describe an emotion rather than express it. Alice does not express anything
> (orally, at least) in this passage and there is o sign that the writer
> empathizes with the emotion she is described as having..
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Craig Daniel <
teucer@pobox.com>
> To:
lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 1:32:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version
>
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Jonathan Jones <
eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Luke Bergen <
lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well hang on, she grew tired of sitting by her sister and doing nothing.
>>> If one were doing something that was extremely taxing on the body, they
>>> would very quickly become tatpi. If one were doing something very taxing to
>>> one's interest i.e. doing something boring, they could become tatpi
>>
>> Here's my problem with likening "boredom" to {tatpi}:
>>
>> tatpi x1 is tired/*fatigued* by effort/situation x2 (event); x1 needs/wants
>> rest
>>
>> The fact that the word "fatigued" is included in the definition means, to
>> me, that {tatpi} is a valid translation of "tire" as in "become sleepy or
>> weary", but not of "tire" as in "become bored or impatient".
>
> I believe that she's becoming something that I would describe as
> "weary," but if I were translating it myself I'd probably use a tanru
> that while convey what (decidedly non-core) part of tatpi's semantic
> space is being invoked. Off-the-cuff I'm thinking something like
> <tolselzdi tatpi> "unamused-weary", but somebody with a better
> vocabulary than mine can probably do much better.
>
> By the way, is it just me being not very good at looking up good ways
> to say words I don't know, or is there not a convenient way to refer
> to boredom with a brief lujvo?
>
> ...actually, hold that thought. Who says boredom needs to be expressed
> with brivla? Perhaps if one opted for saying she was tatpi
> .a'ucu'idai.a'enaidai.a'acu'idai, then both her mental state and the
> fact that the author also finds Alice sitting there kind of boring and
> decidedly worth moving on from to her much more fascinating time in
> Wonderland would be as clear as there is any need for them to be.
> That's a bit of a mouthful if you use all of it, because there very
> definitely isn't a UI that captures boredom exactly. But I think all
> of those get at what she's probably feeling, and what I would quickly
> find myself feeling if the narrative didn't progress from there to the
> fantasy.
>
> I like using tatpi if it can be done unconfusingly, since after all
> the dominant interpretation of what happens next is that she falls
> asleep. I prefer to imagine it as a fantastic story in which these
> things actually happen - or rather, I prefer to imagine it both ways,
> since the fact that the text doesn't *quite* tell us which it is but
> makes it clear the dream is a strong possibility is part of what I
> like about it. But really, if I had to pick one, she's dreaming; if
> she's dreaming it is because she's sipna, which happened in part
> because she was tatpi whether or not her ka tatpi was what that
> sentence told us about.
>
> - mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
>
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