Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

Well, there is no sign that Dodo is bored, etc., just that he is moving the 
story along.  And do be very careful with UI to be sure that you don't use them 
to describe an emotion rather than express it.  Alice does not express anything 
(orally, at least) in this passage and there is o sign that the writer 
empathizes with the emotion she is described as having..


----- Original Message ----
From: Craig Daniel <teucer@pobox.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 1:32:38 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well hang on, she grew tired of sitting by her sister and doing nothing.
>> If one were doing something that was extremely taxing on the body, they
>> would very quickly become tatpi.  If one were doing something very taxing to
>> one's interest i.e. doing something boring, they could become tatpi
>
> Here's my problem with likening "boredom" to {tatpi}:
>
> tatpi  x1 is tired/*fatigued* by effort/situation x2 (event); x1 needs/wants
> rest
>
> The fact that the word "fatigued" is included in the definition means, to
> me, that {tatpi} is a valid translation of "tire" as in "become sleepy or
> weary", but not of "tire" as in "become bored or impatient".

I believe that she's becoming something that I would describe as
"weary," but if I were translating it myself I'd probably use a tanru
that while convey what (decidedly non-core) part of tatpi's semantic
space is being invoked. Off-the-cuff I'm thinking something like
<tolselzdi tatpi> "unamused-weary", but somebody with a better
vocabulary than mine can probably do much better.

By the way, is it just me being not very good at looking up good ways
to say words I don't know, or is there not a convenient way to refer
to boredom with a brief lujvo?

...actually, hold that thought. Who says boredom needs to be expressed
with brivla? Perhaps if one opted for saying she was tatpi
.a'ucu'idai.a'enaidai.a'acu'idai, then both her mental state and the
fact that the author also finds Alice sitting there kind of boring and
decidedly worth moving on from to her much more fascinating time in
Wonderland would be as clear as there is any need for them to be.
That's a bit of a mouthful if you use all of it, because there very
definitely isn't a UI that captures boredom exactly. But I think all
of those get at what she's probably feeling, and what I would quickly
find myself feeling if the narrative didn't progress from there to the
fantasy.

I like using tatpi if it can be done unconfusingly, since after all
the dominant interpretation of what happens next is that she falls
asleep. I prefer to imagine it as a fantastic story in which these
things actually happen - or rather, I prefer to imagine it both ways,
since the fact that the text doesn't *quite* tell us which it is but
makes it clear the dream is a strong possibility is part of what I
like about it. But really, if I had to pick one, she's dreaming; if
she's dreaming it is because she's sipna, which happened in part
because she was tatpi whether or not her ka tatpi was what that
sentence told us about.

- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.

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