From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 5:28:18 PM
Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying
that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)
what he's saying is:
"do you WANT cream or sugar" is coming out more like "hey buddy, your cup is over there, do you even WANT anything in it?"
while "do you want CREAM or SUGAR" comes out as "would you rather have cream, or would you rather have sugar", which sounds more like an xor to me.
Maybe a different example:
A parent sees a kid doing the same bad thing for the 19th time and says "How many times do I have to tell you?!! Do you WANT to lose the tv or video games?!". (the sentence we're looking at is the second one). The parent is asking if the child wants for the event of (them losing tv or video game privileges) to come true. {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei ju'e lo nu do kelci}
VS
Same scenario. "I told you last time that if you did it again, you WILL be punished. Do you want to lose the TV or VIDEO-GAMES?". This time, the emphasis tells the child that they will be losing something and that they are being asked to give an answer as to which of the two they want to lose (or rather, least want to surrender). {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei kei ku ji lo nu na curmi lo nu do kelci}.
....
now stop being stubborn ;)
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Jonathan Jones
<eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko
<ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones
<eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is the same regardless of emphasis.
No, it isn't.
Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying "CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only one or the other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing.
You either don't know English well enough
I have at least a college level understanding of the English language, I
can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked
either with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and
know the meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a
large portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking
English for 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects.
or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English language. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the example I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do *not* have the same meaning.
Sentences in general are up to context. I am speaking specifically about the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?', because, at least with English, sweeping generalizations about the effects of differing emphasis are always wrong.
If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it's meaning change? No.
"Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs. "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not be interpreted as having different meanings, because in the context of cream and sugar for coffee, no one would ever suggest that the customer may have one or the other but not both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This customer is hard of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he hears me correctly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, for example, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR question, due to contextual factors, including culture.
Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is usually neither OR nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "yes" or "no", which it would be if the 'or' in the question was OR or XOR.
And with one fell swoop you just contradicted everything you have said prior, merely by pointing out that the English word "or" has nothing to do with logic.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
--
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