Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo

On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 2:07 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

You give {su'o pa mei} to all the referent that are individual(s) of a universe of discourse,

No, not just individuals. Everything and anything satisfies "su'o pa mei", including any non-individuals that there may be in the universe of discourse..

while I give {su'o pa mei} to certain members of it, including non-indiviidual members, not to all.

But why? Why do you want some things not to satisfy "su'o pa mei" which basically should mean "x1 is/are something(s)"? You still haven't explained why you want to define "su'o pa mei" in such a particular way.

Using {ke'a}, our definitions are described as follows:

(D1-7) ko'a su'o pa mei
(D1) ke'a su'o N mei := su'oi da poi me ke'a ku'o su'oi de poi me ke'a zo'u ge da su'o N-1 mei gi de na me da
(D2) ke'a N mei := ke'a su'o N mei gi'e nai su'o N+1 mei
(D3) lo PA broda := zo'e noi ke'a PA mei gi'e broda

When (D1) and (D2) are applied to a particular sumti, ke'a are replaced with it. As for (D3), ke'a is in noi-clause, and it is already fixed to zo'e, and is not replaced with another sumti, of course.

Because (D1-7) defines only for {ko'a}, (D1) (D2) (D3) are valid only for sumti that involves a referent of {ko'a} such as {ko'e noi ko'a me ke'a}, {ko'i no'u ko'a jo'u ko'o} etc. (D1) (D2) (D3) are not used for other sumti unless (D1-7) is applied to one of the referents that is involved by the sumti.

If D1-7 defines only for ko'a, then it is not necessarily valid for ro'oi da poi me ko'a. You need "ro'oi da poi me ko'a cu su'o mei" if you want it to be valid for anything among ko'a. But that won't make it valid for ko'a jo'u ko'o if something in ko'o is not in ko'a.

No. When (D1-7) defines for {ko'a}, the referent of {ko'a} satisfies {su'o pa mei} _non-distributively_.

Any other referents that are {me ko'a} do not satisfy {su'o pa mei}.

You don't know, that's not part of D1-7. If that's what you want, then you need something like:

(D1-8) ke'a su'o pa mei := ke'a du ko'a

Now you would have a full definition, and we would know that only ko'a satisfies "su'o pa mei", while everything else doesn't.

With (D1-7) as is, we know that ko'a satisfies "su'o pa mei" but we have no way of knowing whether anything else does.

For example, suppose that a speaker regards {lo nanba} is non-individual:

ro'oi da poi me lo nanba ku'o su'oi de poi me lo nanba zo'u de me da ijenai da me de

That is, the speaker regards a half of {lo nanba} is also {me lo nanba}.

Yes.

Even though there is no individual {lo nanba}, an _expression_ {N mei} is available with (D1-7) (D1) (D2) (D3).

No:

"lo nanba cu su'o pa mei" is true

"lo nanba cu su'o re mei" is true
"lo nanba cu su'o ci mei" is true

I call them {lo nanba xi re} and {lo nanba xi ci} respectively for convenience.

But it's the same "lo nanba"!

lo nanba cu su'o pa mei gi'e su'o re mei gi'e su'o ci mei gi'e ..." is true.

It cannot be true when
(D1-7} lo nanba cu su'o pa mei
is defined to {lo nanba}.

In the definition

(D1) lo nanba cu su'o re mei := su'oi da poi me lo nanba ku'o su'oi de poi me lo nanba zo'u ge da su'o pa mei gi de na me da

{da su'o pa mei} is true only for the referent of {lo nanba} used in (D1-7), that is, {lo nanba} itself, and it satisfies {su'o pa mei} _non-distributively_. The other referents in the domain of {da poi me lo nanba} do not satisfy {da su'o pa mei}.

With the definition you gave, there's no way of knowing what else besides "lo nanba" will satisfy "su'o pa mei". If you mean something like (D1-8) instead of (D1-7) then yes, "lo nanba cu su'o re mei" will be false, and "lo nanba cu pa mei" will be true. "mi pa mei" will also be false, "mi jo'u do re mei" will be false, and so on. How can you possibly justify a definition like that for these predicates? They end up meaning nothing like "is one", "are two", "are three", and so on.

Those definitions, with either (D1-7) or (D1-8), just don't make any sense to me. With (D1-7) it's not even a complete definition.

I will stick with these (using "ko'a" as a place-holder):

(D0) ko'a su'o pa mei := su'oi da me ko'a

(D1) ko'a su'o N mei := su'oi da poi me ko'a ku'o su'oi de poi me ko'a zo'u ge da su'o N-1 mei gi de na me da [N>=2]

(D2) ko'a N mei := ko'a su'o N mei gi'e nai su'o N+1 mei [N>=1]

(D3) lo PA broda := zo'e noi ke'a PA mei gi'e broda

mu'o mi'e xorxes