Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

Lord love a duck!  Are we going to have a full-blown pilpul on every word in 
Alice (it has happened, in fact, in English already).  xorxes' version stands. 
 If you want another version, make it.  And maybe someone should keep a variorum 
going questions.  But clogging a lot of inboxes for a couple of days seems 
excessive.  Maybe we need an Alice list -- separate and separately subscribed 
to.


----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 5:56:39 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version

touche'!  aroop!


----- Original Message ----
From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 4:22:49 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Alice - the xorlo version

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> doi cevni. We're at 73 messages and not even out of the first paragraph

The very first sentence, in fact, if you don't count the introductory
poem. That poem probably has a lot more juicy bits to comment on, but
I can't say I blame anyone for skipping it.

I think it might be useful to separate two issues here:

(1) What exactly does "tatpi" mean? How wide/narrow is its meaning?

(2) What is the best possible translation of the first sentence of
'Alice in Wonderland'?

As for (2), I will make the final decision for my translation.
Everyone else is of course welcome to hate my choice or not, but I'm
responsible for it and so I will choose according to my own judgement.
I'm grateful for all the opinions and suggestions, which I will keep
pondering on. For the time being, "tatpi" stays.

As for (1), it seems the consensus is that "tatpi" can be used without
any trouble for things like:

"She is tired from having run a marathon."
"She is tired from having played chess for five hours."
"She is tired from putting up with her in-laws for a week."

It is not so clear what the general opinion is on:

"She is tired of running, so she will stop any time now."
"She is tired of playing chess every Sunday, so she won't be doing it
anymore for a while."
"She is tired of having to put up with her in-laws every Thanksgiving."

Does the fact that the thing that makes her tired is still going on,
or is habitual, make a difference as to the use of "tatpi"? I think
not, but people have said that "tatpi" is never "tired of", so I don't
know what they think of those cases.

Then there's the issue of being tired from doing nothing. Is it
possible? There might be room for a philosophical discussion there,
but linguistically it is definitely possible, just Google "tired from
doing nothing" and see for yourself. This is my favorite from the
first page of hits:
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4464836

Staying with the first sentence still, I was actually more unhappy
with "zukte fi no da" for "having nothing to do" than with "co'a
tatpi".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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