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Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2




On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:18 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

To insist that "(bridi)" express the same proposition when bare and when in "operator (bridi)" is to insist that the syntax/logical form of bridi must be determined solely by their morphophonological structure and not rules, such as scope-leaping, that allow (carefully regulated) mismatches. Such an insistence fosters simplicity of rules, but is not very utilitarian. Lojban already has mismatches for sure, e.g. "(na ku zo'u) ma broda".

Yes, "ma" and "ko" are outlaws in this regard (and probably not the only ones).  

Take the present case as an example. Suppose you want to say "zo'e ge broda gi poi'i mi jinvi lo du'u ke'a brodu". By the candidate rules I'm counterposing to yours, that could simply be rendered as the morphophonologically simpler "mi jinvi lo du'u lo broda cu brodu".

Yes, but suppose you want to say: "zo'e ga nai broda gi poi'i mi jinvi lo du'u ke'a brodu", which has the same logical structure, just a different connective. Would we need a new gadri to go with this form? And another one for "zo'e gu broda gi poi'i mi jinvi lo du'u ke'a brodu", and so on? I suppose you are saying that the structure of "zo'e ge broda gi poi'i mi jinvi lo du'u ke'a brodu" is something we want to use so often that it should have a simpler form, even at the cost of complicating other rules, while I'm not seeing that it is that necessary. 


When it is used to refer to the asking of a question, it is an
argument of "... is the reason for ...", but when used to ask a
question, it is not. It just happens that we can conveniently use it
for both things at the same time.

In "use it for both things at the same time", what is "it"?

The proposition expressed by "I ask whether it is dinner time yet."
 
As I understand it, I'm saying that the logical form for the sentence contains only the illocution "I hereby ask whether", while you are saying it contains both the illocution and a separate referential description of the illocution. But in that case, there is nothing that is being used for both things at the same time.

I'm saying that the single locution (and the proposition it expresses) is being used simultaneously with two different illocutionary forces, in two different illocutionary acts. In one of the acts, "ask" is performative, in the other act it is not. It's just that I find it very hard to see a question as constituting a part of a claim. Possibly it's just a matter of definition and the classification of illocutionary acts, I'm not sure we are actually discussing anything very substantial..

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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