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Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2



OK, put ti that way.  Then {xxx poi broda} selects from the salient features of the situation the ones that broda, though I do thnk that is backwards of what really goes on and that the process is closer to that for {da poi broda}, taking the brodas and looking for the salient one. the contrast with {noi} applies in any case.

The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow any transformation, since it is entirely static (whether PEG or YACC).  So I suppose that  you mean that  {re da lo mamta be da} is not a term in Lojban.  Nor should it be, since "2y lxMxy" is not a term in logic.  But why would you want it to be?  The answer is that you don't, as your further steps show.  You just want "lx2yMxy" which you have already in {lo mamta be re da} by perfectly general rules already in place (quantifiers go to shortest scope with copy variable in original place, descriptor goes to descriptor +var with a copy variable in first place of predicate).  The rules get complicated later, but not here.  So, until I see some markedly more complicated cases, I don't see wtf you are all about.  The whole point of much of the deviation of Lojban from logical notation is to make an ergonomic (yuck, ptui!) language while keeping a connection to the logic.  Why deliberately go after the antiergonomic "standard form" when you have a good representation already,  There are problems with Lojban's representations of standard form, but the solution is to find better ergonomic treatments, not to give up and go back to the unusable originals.

"l" is not a quantifier but an operator for converting an open formula into a term and Lojban has at least one of those, namely {lo}, which "l" represents. This is basic logic stuff; where is the problem?


On Friday, October 10, 2014 7:09 PM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:



On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:26 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Well, no.  {xxx}, like {zo'e}, picks something that go in a particular place in particular predicate, this time the salient possibility, not just one that makes the bridi true.  The {poi} clause provides, as always, the relevant predicate place.  The plan, of course, is not really to introduce a new term, but rectify the definition of {zo'e}.

As I understand, "poi" when attached to a referring _expression_ selects from among the referents of the referring _expression_ just those that satisfy the poi-clause, so "ko'a poi broda" selects from the referents of ko'a, those that satisfy broda.  So for example "ti poi toldi" means "those among these that are butterflies" and not "these things, which I'm telling you are butterflies so as to help you identify what I mean".  

The rest seem fairly wormrunnerish.  What purpose do you have inm mind that requires a shift of quantifiers to prenex?  Why can't They be pulled it of sumti tails (whatever they may be)?

The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow it.
 
 The underlying structure of {lo manta be re da} is lx2yMxy.

Right. In the open proposition "2yMxy" you basicaly have 2y in the prenex.
 
 Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- which doesn't seem very far, Lojban has moved away from logic.

Lojban doesn't have anything that corresponds (syntactically) to the quantifier "lx". There is no PA that corresponds to "l" and "lo da" is not a quantifier.
 
 Now, what theological situation is in terms of pulling that quantifier out of the tem and up to the propositional level needs to be worked out in the logic and might well also need some rules in the grammar, but that doesn't seem to be what you are about, since you stay at the level of terms but give ever farther from the simple form.  

Moving a quantifier term to the prenex is what most effectively reflects standard FOPL notation: 

Ax Ey Bxy
ro da zo'u su'o de zo'u broda fa da de

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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